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	<title>Comments on: Geeks who happen to also be women</title>
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		<title>By: Buidhe</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-20506</link>
		<dc:creator>Buidhe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-20506</guid>
		<description>HI, after a google for female developer, I&#039;ve been reading a few blogs in the last couple of hours and am heartened by the number of fellow lady geeks out there!  I, like a lot of people am on the verge of exiting the field due to the pressures you get as a female. I love computers and programming, came to it later in life than some (a postgrad after travelling), but felt lucky enough to have found a true calling. I do a lot of things that people seem to be saying women aren&#039;t into, I can spend a saturday night in building a PC and installing some random Linux distribution, not to actually use it, but just to muck around with hardware a bit and then get the satisfaction of the install booting. :)  I like playing violent shoot-em-ups on my xbox, i constantly obsess over how things work, and how cool bridges and cranes and engines are. 

Im my last job there were 2 developers, me and and another woman, and the visual designers were all men. I&#039;ve worked with some great guys - I think there are a lot of very smart (if smart equates to intellectual) people in IT and I find generally that all the smartest ones who have done the coolest stuff, don&#039;t judge you on your gender, but on your brain/enthusiasm/love for the same thing.  Admittedly on first meeting people may make assumptions (like the salespeople mentioned above), but as soon as you clarify, they drop the assumption and all is good.

However, a major downside of my career has been that I get boxed into &#039;people&#039; roles, partly because I pick up tasks that no one wants to do (I blame my parents old fashioned work ethics), but also I think (at the risk of being sexist) women, even geek women, have a more natural ability to communicate etc, so you end up team leading, co-ordinating, administering.  I don&#039;t want to do this and I hate it, but when I talk about what I want to do (technical/enterprise architecture, security), doors seem to close, people turn away. My feeling is its desirable to be a female developer, particularly in web etc (as this is seen as &#039;softer&#039;), but if you head for the jobs where you are telling male developers how to to design and build their systems...  I know also that I am not an aggressive person, and have not fought hard for what I wanted, but I&#039;m a nerd not a fighter :)

My current perspective is that that you feel that you push against the tide, then you lose a bit of your youthful idealism that you can change things, you are still having to push as hard, then you start questioning your happiness in your chosen career and this happiness issue seems to be a key factor in women turning away.  

BUT BUT, I have been immensely encouraged by the things I have read, and have remembered that there are all sorts of stereotypes but there are also a lot of great people who respect others regardless of gender or anything else.

Apologies for bad grammar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HI, after a google for female developer, I&#8217;ve been reading a few blogs in the last couple of hours and am heartened by the number of fellow lady geeks out there!  I, like a lot of people am on the verge of exiting the field due to the pressures you get as a female. I love computers and programming, came to it later in life than some (a postgrad after travelling), but felt lucky enough to have found a true calling. I do a lot of things that people seem to be saying women aren&#8217;t into, I can spend a saturday night in building a PC and installing some random Linux distribution, not to actually use it, but just to muck around with hardware a bit and then get the satisfaction of the install booting. <img src='http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   I like playing violent shoot-em-ups on my xbox, i constantly obsess over how things work, and how cool bridges and cranes and engines are. </p>
<p>Im my last job there were 2 developers, me and and another woman, and the visual designers were all men. I&#8217;ve worked with some great guys &#8211; I think there are a lot of very smart (if smart equates to intellectual) people in IT and I find generally that all the smartest ones who have done the coolest stuff, don&#8217;t judge you on your gender, but on your brain/enthusiasm/love for the same thing.  Admittedly on first meeting people may make assumptions (like the salespeople mentioned above), but as soon as you clarify, they drop the assumption and all is good.</p>
<p>However, a major downside of my career has been that I get boxed into &#8216;people&#8217; roles, partly because I pick up tasks that no one wants to do (I blame my parents old fashioned work ethics), but also I think (at the risk of being sexist) women, even geek women, have a more natural ability to communicate etc, so you end up team leading, co-ordinating, administering.  I don&#8217;t want to do this and I hate it, but when I talk about what I want to do (technical/enterprise architecture, security), doors seem to close, people turn away. My feeling is its desirable to be a female developer, particularly in web etc (as this is seen as &#8217;softer&#8217;), but if you head for the jobs where you are telling male developers how to to design and build their systems&#8230;  I know also that I am not an aggressive person, and have not fought hard for what I wanted, but I&#8217;m a nerd not a fighter <img src='http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My current perspective is that that you feel that you push against the tide, then you lose a bit of your youthful idealism that you can change things, you are still having to push as hard, then you start questioning your happiness in your chosen career and this happiness issue seems to be a key factor in women turning away.  </p>
<p>BUT BUT, I have been immensely encouraged by the things I have read, and have remembered that there are all sorts of stereotypes but there are also a lot of great people who respect others regardless of gender or anything else.</p>
<p>Apologies for bad grammar.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-13222</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-13222</guid>
		<description>Yes I&#039;ve def been on the receiving end of this, in both the tech sense and in a way similar to Willy&#039;s comment about his daughter.  In my case it is when I came to buy a new car and my friend (male) drove me to take a look.  When the sales people come over they invariably talked to him about the details even after being told from the start that the car was for me.  We either asked them to tell me as it would be my car, or let him tell them he had no idea what they were talking about and had no interest as the car was for me.

The worst case I had in IT was when  I went for an interview as a web developer, and was told at the interview that the reason they had decided to see me was they had never heard of a female developer!  I wouldn&#039;t mind so much but this wasn&#039;t a small firm it was an ISP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I&#8217;ve def been on the receiving end of this, in both the tech sense and in a way similar to Willy&#8217;s comment about his daughter.  In my case it is when I came to buy a new car and my friend (male) drove me to take a look.  When the sales people come over they invariably talked to him about the details even after being told from the start that the car was for me.  We either asked them to tell me as it would be my car, or let him tell them he had no idea what they were talking about and had no interest as the car was for me.</p>
<p>The worst case I had in IT was when  I went for an interview as a web developer, and was told at the interview that the reason they had decided to see me was they had never heard of a female developer!  I wouldn&#8217;t mind so much but this wasn&#8217;t a small firm it was an ISP.</p>
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		<title>By: DutchKid</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-11391</link>
		<dc:creator>DutchKid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 09:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-11391</guid>
		<description>Back in the nineties I used to have a parttime job as a webdesigner. I worked in a large room with about 6 men (boys, really) who spent a lot of time surfing porn sites and actually discussing them while I was there. Sometimes account managers would enter the room with a technology related question, and they never ever asked me for help, even if the boys didn&#039;t know the answer.
This was a bad time.
Fortunely, now I have my own company my clients do take me seriously.
I agree that women in IT should be more visible, especially &#039;cause we&#039;re still a minority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back in the nineties I used to have a parttime job as a webdesigner. I worked in a large room with about 6 men (boys, really) who spent a lot of time surfing porn sites and actually discussing them while I was there. Sometimes account managers would enter the room with a technology related question, and they never ever asked me for help, even if the boys didn&#8217;t know the answer.<br />
This was a bad time.<br />
Fortunely, now I have my own company my clients do take me seriously.<br />
I agree that women in IT should be more visible, especially &#8217;cause we&#8217;re still a minority.</p>
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		<title>By: hilary</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2006 11:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>Purplepenny I LIKE your style! :) I have been pretty lucky, while I&#039;ve been working for myself I find my clients assume I know everything there is to know about computers, which I dont, so I pass the techie stuff onto my boyfriend.. however Im going into the real world of interviews etc now, and Im really wondering how many boys clubs there are out there and if it will matter.. fingers crossed..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Purplepenny I LIKE your style! <img src='http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I have been pretty lucky, while I&#8217;ve been working for myself I find my clients assume I know everything there is to know about computers, which I dont, so I pass the techie stuff onto my boyfriend.. however Im going into the real world of interviews etc now, and Im really wondering how many boys clubs there are out there and if it will matter.. fingers crossed..</p>
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		<title>By: PurplePenny</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-8465</link>
		<dc:creator>PurplePenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 May 2006 12:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-8465</guid>
		<description>I too get the men talking to my husband, Kev; usually at computer fairs after *I* have asked a question.  We both take great delight in letting them waffle on for a while then Kev says innocently &quot;I&#039;m sorry, I don&#039;t have the faintest idea what you are talking about.&quot; and we watch the &quot;Omigod I&#039;ve lost a sale&quot; expression dawn on the trader&#039;s face.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too get the men talking to my husband, Kev; usually at computer fairs after *I* have asked a question.  We both take great delight in letting them waffle on for a while then Kev says innocently &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, I don&#8217;t have the faintest idea what you are talking about.&#8221; and we watch the &#8220;Omigod I&#8217;ve lost a sale&#8221; expression dawn on the trader&#8217;s face.</p>
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		<title>By: Katerina</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-8445</link>
		<dc:creator>Katerina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 May 2006 15:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-8445</guid>
		<description>Yep, yep, yep, and once more--yep!  It is REALLY annoying (&quot;Oh?  YOU are in IT?&quot;), and the more we speak out and present ourselves, confidently and as a matter of fact (&quot;Yes, I am in IT and loving it!&quot; ;-), the better this world will be.  For both men and women.  And their sanity. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, yep, yep, and once more&#8211;yep!  It is REALLY annoying (&#8220;Oh?  YOU are in IT?&#8221;), and the more we speak out and present ourselves, confidently and as a matter of fact (&#8220;Yes, I am in IT and loving it!&#8221; <img src='http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> , the better this world will be.  For both men and women.  And their sanity. <img src='http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Willy Vanelderen</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-8170</link>
		<dc:creator>Willy Vanelderen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-8170</guid>
		<description>A few years ago my daughter was renovating her house. At a trade fair she asked a salesman some information. The salesman starts explaining to me until she stopped him saying &quot;He mister, it&#039;s me who&#039;s renovating&quot;. Problem solved. So girls stand up for yourselves whatever business you&#039;re in!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few years ago my daughter was renovating her house. At a trade fair she asked a salesman some information. The salesman starts explaining to me until she stopped him saying &#8220;He mister, it&#8217;s me who&#8217;s renovating&#8221;. Problem solved. So girls stand up for yourselves whatever business you&#8217;re in!</p>
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		<title>By: Mariam Ayyash</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-7096</link>
		<dc:creator>Mariam Ayyash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-7096</guid>
		<description>I agree with Molly, I too am considered one of the guys, never faced any trouble since I AM the best of them technically, and no I never faced any problem convincing anyone that I am competent, and never had to put extra efforts into it, because I get my clients through referrals who describe me pretty well... but I guess there is no problem in pre-assuming that woman are not as good, because it does happen that more than 90% of a certain vocation is inhabited by men, and the case is correct on males as well... I do not wish to have a make baby sitter, I alwasy preassume he doesnt fit, neither a cook, or a barber, or a decoration engineer (woman are always better;) ), so you see the point, it goes both ways, i think its only human, and we shouldnt be sensitive to the issue, u just need to play a little harded the first few steps, but afterwards may the best win it all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Molly, I too am considered one of the guys, never faced any trouble since I AM the best of them technically, and no I never faced any problem convincing anyone that I am competent, and never had to put extra efforts into it, because I get my clients through referrals who describe me pretty well&#8230; but I guess there is no problem in pre-assuming that woman are not as good, because it does happen that more than 90% of a certain vocation is inhabited by men, and the case is correct on males as well&#8230; I do not wish to have a make baby sitter, I alwasy preassume he doesnt fit, neither a cook, or a barber, or a decoration engineer (woman are always better;) ), so you see the point, it goes both ways, i think its only human, and we shouldnt be sensitive to the issue, u just need to play a little harded the first few steps, but afterwards may the best win it all!</p>
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		<title>By: Molly E. Holzschlag</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-6637</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly E. Holzschlag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-6637</guid>
		<description>This is a discussion I never want to have but always end up having to have because of the constant idiocy I find in the field. I&#039;ve been very fortunate to not have had too much trouble myself, but perhaps I&#039;ve been successful in navigating social waters and as a result the men often see me as &quot;one of the guys.&quot; That in turn results in them showing me their ugly sides without &quot;meaning&quot; to do so (hence my &lt;object&gt;ification blues song from SXSW). 

I don&#039;t know the solution, but I sure can smell the problem. And it isn&#039;t going to get better if we don&#039;t open our mouths and (reaching for a diplomatic word here) CLARIFY for our male colleagues what truths they&#039;re missing when they do just that.

The other thing is, we can&#039;t hold ourselves back and while I&#039;ve never been a parent, it occurs to me that women are often the primary caregiver to children. Why does this poor behavior exists? And it is behavior because if it were nature ALL men would be prejudiced and thank god there are many who are wonderful colleagues, friends and partners and do not participate in this sort of nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a discussion I never want to have but always end up having to have because of the constant idiocy I find in the field. I&#8217;ve been very fortunate to not have had too much trouble myself, but perhaps I&#8217;ve been successful in navigating social waters and as a result the men often see me as &#8220;one of the guys.&#8221; That in turn results in them showing me their ugly sides without &#8220;meaning&#8221; to do so (hence my &lt;object&gt;ification blues song from SXSW). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the solution, but I sure can smell the problem. And it isn&#8217;t going to get better if we don&#8217;t open our mouths and (reaching for a diplomatic word here) CLARIFY for our male colleagues what truths they&#8217;re missing when they do just that.</p>
<p>The other thing is, we can&#8217;t hold ourselves back and while I&#8217;ve never been a parent, it occurs to me that women are often the primary caregiver to children. Why does this poor behavior exists? And it is behavior because if it were nature ALL men would be prejudiced and thank god there are many who are wonderful colleagues, friends and partners and do not participate in this sort of nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: Sorcha Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/comment-page-1/#comment-6616</link>
		<dc:creator>Sorcha Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2006/03/14/geeks-who-happen-to-also-be-women/#comment-6616</guid>
		<description>Maybe?...DEFINITELY time for a female techie little revolution...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe?&#8230;DEFINITELY time for a female techie little revolution&#8230;</p>
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